Curse

milias · Sep 01, 2006, 06:20 PM // 18:20

The way I see it is that it doesn't really matter whether you find it offensive, it's whether someone does find it offensive. What may be offensive to one person may not be for the next. But as long as someone is offended by this, for whatever reason, I think ANet has an obligation to at least look into the matter and make redress if necessary.

Rok · Sep 01, 2006, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Anet is not the first, and won't be the last to use the term "Whirling Dervish" in a game. I do recall a Magic: The Gathering card called a Whirling Dervish.

It is not an insult, in fact it was said in awe and utmost respect for the skills of a fighter when someone remarked they fought like a "Whirling Dervish", apparently someone saw one of these dancers perform and likened it to a fighting style. Blame history not Anet.

If a game makes you upset, you might need some counseling. Good luck with your friends future mental health.

Tingi · Sep 01, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

...omg this thread is...well. To the OP; these are FICTIONAL Dervishes who wield great big scythes and fight and who also possess magical powers. Not dancing "Whirling Dervishes" who, well, DANCE.

If you start shouting "RACIST OMG RACIST" at everything, you're friend should really sort out his priorities..

Sagius Truthbarron · Sep 01, 2006, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by milias

The way I see it is that it doesn't really matter whether you find it offensive, it's whether someone does find it offensive. What may be offensive to one person may not be for the next. But as long as someone is offended by this, for whatever reason, I think ANet has an obligation to at least look into the matter and make redress if necessary.

I agree. Think of how Geico handled the Cave Man issue.

2ndName · Sep 01, 2006, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Are you kidding me? Is a game. They are not trying to single your friend out.

Since Factions took an Asian theme, should I be offended that the main bad guy was Asian? What about the peasants, they were all asians and gets killed every single time I zone out.

Also, if you play Magic the gathering, there is a card that is actually pretty good called the whirling dervish.

Tell your friend to enjoy life and to be glad that we are not living in a time where we have to wield swords and stab random people just to get by.

Omega X · Sep 01, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rok

Anet is not the first, and won't be the last to use the term "Whirling Dervish" in a game. I do recall a Magic: The Gathering card called a Whirling Dervish.

It is not an insult, in fact it was said in awe and utmost respect for the skills of a fighter when someone remarked they fought like a "Whirling Dervish", apparently someone saw one of these dancers perform and likened it to a fighting style. Blame history not Anet.

If a game makes you upset, you might need some counseling. Good luck with your friends future mental health.

I agree. This person needs a priority check. Or is he trying to create a case to get in NC Soft's pockets?

2ndName · Sep 01, 2006, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omega X

I agree. This person needs a priority check. Or is he trying to create a case to get in NC Soft's pockets?

It is probably more valid for your friend to try and use money as motivation instead of throwing the racist flag.

I am seriously getting tired of people feeling offended by little things. Tell him to focus on the big issues around the globe instead of focusing on his ancestors who he didn't even know. Hell, I probably have an ancestor dating back a few thousand of years who fought for something that he/she believed in. And if you keep going back, there are probably only a handful of people who all fought for something, and we are all related in someway or another.

trialist · Sep 01, 2006, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Err... huh? Seriously, someone needs a hug, bad... I mean i can understand if the name dervish was deliberately misspelled to something like digger, like someone who calls african americans, RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs as a racial slur, but it's simply ridiculous in this case as there is nothing offensive about a "whirling dervish". I mean if its a "whoring dervish", you might have a case, but otherwise, this thread is just plain silly. Inaccurate history i might agree, but racist??? Where did that come up? Next you will be going ballistic against "dancing asians" or "jumping americans".

eternal pho · Sep 01, 2006, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by milias

Just for clarification, as far as I know, Whirling Dervishes aren't really fighters, they're dancers in the Ottoman Empire who try to get closer to their god through dancing.

Just recently saw a documentary on this.

Yes, I watch the History Channel

Eh I'm confused lol. One person says that they're not fighters and another says they're not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrscoombes

First of all, i'd like to say I am not getting at Anet in any way or accusing them of being racially insensitive in any way. K now I have that cleared up:

With that pvp weekend for paragon+dervish tests, my friend got quite upset over the dervish matter. He is foreign and he has a very strong sense of family. Now he does loads of research on his ancestors...and 2 of which happened to be Dervish Warriors who fought the brits back when we controlled a heck of a lot of the planet. Yes, dervishes were real fighters. They were known as whirling dervishes by the brits, whether this was a racial insult or not i don't know. My friend found it quite insulting however, when he saw a 'Whirling Dervish' on the premade builds.

He kept on mumbling 'They dont know what the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO its like...' and so on. I can't really blame him: would you like loads and loads of boys+girls+adults sitting at a computer, happily playing away killing and being killed by these war heroes, who just happened to remind you strikingly of your ancestors?

I was just wondering if Arenanet could maybe make less obvious racial hints, I know its lore and such but I definately know my friend wasn't the only one who got pissed off by it. I've managed to convince him to carry on playing GW but he isnt buying nightfall and wont even mention anything to do with it...

>_<

Edit: BUGGER the title was supposed to say 'Racial matters' I remind you again, I am not accusing anyone of being racist in any way at all.

Well, Cantha is Asian based. Shiro is suppose to be asian right? OMG I'm asian and I just killed another asian. =P

frojack · Sep 01, 2006, 07:52 PM // 19:52

I usually stay away from racial debates for obvious reasons, but this however just isn't anything at all. The references Anet make are exceptionally well-informed (Rocco Bonnetti, aatxe for example) and this is no less impressive.
There are some very real episodes of racism in the game, which Anet really can't be blamed for. One of which was so vulgar I was compelled to actually report it for the first time ( I won't comment on the quality of support system). Usually it's just individuals who lack the wisdom of age and have an abundance of the stupidity of youth. Sometimes it's something else.

The Whirling Dervish reference is something to be proud of and impressed by. It is not in any way, form, or fashion racist or racially charged. Anet deserve a huge round of applause for being brave enough to develop a game with a high number of dark-skinned 'lead' characters.
Especially something they plan to sell in the american market. I work in this industry and I can honestly tell you that not many companies are brave or daring enough to do so. They are as over-sensitive and paranoid as a large proportion of the people who cry 'racism' for little reason. Until now in fact, I didn't even believe one existed.

Well done Anet, well done indeed...

HalPlantagenet · Sep 01, 2006, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Well said frojack. Thank you for providing the proper context.

gr3g · Sep 01, 2006, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Anet deserve a huge round of applause for being brave enough to develop a game with a high number of dark-skinned 'lead' characters.

Credit where credit is due, I give ArenaNet lots of kudos for taking this bold step. In an ideal world it wouldn't be such a bold decision to have primarily dark skinned characters, but the world is far from ideal when it comes to issues of race or ethnicity.

The only complaint I have---and it's mostly nitpicking---is that skin colour is too superficial. Racial features are not properly implemented. Dark skinned people of African ancestry don't (generally) have blue eyes or sunken cheekbones or slit lips. East Asian features have prominent epicanthial folds that are missing from most or all Canthan face models. I would love for them to pay a little more attention to cladistics and racial phenomes.

Alfrond · Sep 01, 2006, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Of Course, Guild Wars doesn't take place in Africa or East Asia, it takes place in Elonia and Cantha

**cosyfiep** · Sep 01, 2006, 08:55 PM // 20:55

OP, if you friend chooses to be upset thats his perogative.....I doubt it was the intention of the game designers to insult anyone be they asian, black, white, ...or dervish......so try to remind your friend it is just a game. And if he doesnt want to play it, thats ok too.
I hope he comes to understand this, but until then just be a friend to him and grant his wish to aviod the subject.....he may come around or not.

Though I am waiting for them to make some vikings so we can really kick some butt!

Briliant_Halo · Sep 01, 2006, 09:51 PM // 21:51

well well.... my dad is actually a Dervish..and to inform, there are some warriors among the dervishes. Because like every line of faith per say there are grouppings within the faith. And these warrior dervishes were to be found from the middle ages and on...mostly in Iran any way (as far as I know). they lead a life in poverty, and they were weaponed with an axe and sometimes a shield, they would wonder the land and helping people where needed, and also in the same time live in contemplation and meditate. In this way they would try to get closer to God. However this groupping exist i belive within the Shiiate direction, especially within the group who call them selves "Ahleh hagh" which means roughly "followers of the right way". However their traditions carries within it self a great deal of the old Zoroastrian traditions...

Oh dear I did nt mean to start a lecture...

But I think that this issue is not at all racial at all...i think it is in a way, honoring! I cant wait to be a dervish and kick some butt!! A shame that they dont carry axes though...

Energizer Deth Buni · Sep 01, 2006, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Well I look at like this Im half European descent half Native American descent. I still have alot of genetic problems. I mean half me took the land from my other half. I feel both guility and abused for what I ve done to myself. 50% of me wants money for what happened, but I dont think the other 50% wants to pay for it. Most days I just sit and cry and wonder why I did this to myself......

Can we delete this whole thread please?

Yanman.be · Sep 01, 2006, 10:06 PM // 22:06

I think we now know what the dance will be :P

Cottage Pie · Sep 01, 2006, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Energizer Deth Buni

Well I look at like this Im half European descent half Native American descent. I still have alot of genetic problems. I mean half me took the land from my other half. I feel both guility and abused for what I ve done to myself. 50% of me wants money for what happened, but I dont think the other 50% wants to pay for it. Most days I just sit and cry and wonder why I did this to myself......

Can we delete this whole thread please?

and the native americans slaughtered the native inhabitants before them, you know. oh well, i'm english, i weep everynight about what we did to the world. cos. they wouldn't have done such to us if they had the ability. oh no. there are no good guys and bad guys, just those on top and those who want to be on top.

Sam Stormwind · Sep 01, 2006, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Well you learn something new everyday. Didnt know Dervishes were based on real life - personally i wud b chuffed i my ancestors were blade weilding warriors...farmers im afraid !

Amon Borknagar · Sep 01, 2006, 10:17 PM // 22:17

To the OP:

Perhaps your friend feels like he cannot accept his lineage and feels he doesn't fit in. What he really needs to do is embrace who he is and take complete pride in that. If he does that, he may find that whimsical slips in political correctness on the part of others, if indeed they exist, will not affect him. He can either rise above those who are incosiderate or wallow with them in the mud.

One of my good friends, who is black, which in itself doesn't matter to me, but i tell you for the sake of the story, lived his life like this. He was so proud of who he was, and the man he had become, that if someone dropped the N bomb on him he would Not get angry. He didn't feel insulted. He believed beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was stronger and better than anyone else around. Nothing would bring him down. It was amazing. He had risen above the idiocy. And he also believed that no one would care if he complained anyway. Which is a lesson your friend should learn. People are really getting less patient about this constant whining about everything under the sun.

Political Correctness and Aplogist attitudes so need to die. Should I be upset, since I am of Euro lineage, that my warrior is portrayed as lumbering, idiot, warmonger in this game?

Fact is, everyone gets their feelings hurt. The Native Americans, The Irish, The Italians, Mexicans, African Americans, and the list goes on. If all of these people chose to complain 50 to 100 years ago, this country would not be here. The picked themselves up by their bootstraps, dug in and made it happen. I suggest your friend do the same. Before this Dervish thing gets heads him in the wrong direction.

Sorry for the dissertation folks.